To Drink or Not To Drink...Continued
If you haven't been following Thirsty Theologian's posts on beverage alcohol use, I highly encourage you to read the first six posts. Part 2: Sola Scriptura and the SBC Part 3: What Does Scripture Say? Part 4: Abstinence in Scripture
He will be writing a summary very soon, but I couldn't wait to give you a link to go over and check it out. Of course you can leave your comments over at Thirsty Theologian, but I would love to hear what you think about this issue. David had some very persuasive arguments and I must admit (with fear and trembling of being disowned) that I am definitely leaning toward his position. David's position could be summed up by his own statement: "Wine is a good thing. Of that, there should be no doubt. It should be treated the same as every other gift from God. It should be received with gratitude, giving glory to God." He is not only stating that Christians are free to participate in beverage alcohol use, but that Christians SHOULD drink alcohol!
I am interested in seeing what you have to say.
If you are really interested in finding a biblical position on this issue you should go over to Fundamentally Reformed. In his post "Will You Be Having Some Wine?" Bob references numerous web articles concerning this topic. I haven't checked all of them out, but I plan to in the near future. Bob also recently posted an article - "Welch's Grape Juice, Worldly Wisdom, and Wine" - in which he gives some historical information and links concerning the abstinence movement. I think you will find all of this information helpful and enlightening!
posted by Don Fields at 9:07 AM
30 Comments:
I drink. I didn't for more than 30 years but started about 3 years ago.
I have about 2 beers a week. Almost always with a meal. And about once a week, my wife and I split a 6 oz bottle wine (that would be 3 oz each) with a pasta dinner.
I came to the conclusion that the "total abstinence" policy in funademental Baptist circles is not Biblically based (but tradition).
My church has the "total abstinence" position in our covenant but I never hear it mentioned.
Anonymous,
Thanks for reading and for the comment. Do you think that Christians SHOULD drink? Do you believe it brings glory to God or do you think it is just a matter of Christian liberty?
Does anyone in your church know you drink? If so, what do they say? If not, why not?
Anonymous...
If you have agreed with your church's covenant, than how can you purposely go against a principle to which you formerly agreed? Should you do more than simply conclude it isn't a big deal if you have a beer now and again because no one mentions it at church? To me that seems hypocritical and inconsistent...
Dan,
Good point, maybe that is why they posted anonymously. Where do you stand on the issue?
Don--
I haven't read all of the posts, but my initial argument was probably dealt with somewhere along the way. How could I subject myself to something that inately has the ability to control my body? Its not that my love for it could eventually control me, but in and of itself it has the power and potential to control. Why would I or should I put myself in such a position?
Dan,
He does answer those concerns (which were some of the same concerns I had). Read what he has to say and let me know what you think.
My response:
1.) Do you think that Christians SHOULD drink? Answer: No, but I believe we have the liberty to drink in moderation.
2.) Do you believe it brings glory to God? Answer: Yes. When I enjoy a drink with dinner.
3.)Do you think it is just a matter of Christian liberty?. Answer: yes to this too
4.) Does anyone in your church know you drink? Answer: Doubt it. When we entertain Christian friends it is soft drink only.
MORE ANSWERS:
1. If you have agreed with your church's covenant ... Answer: I was never asked if I agreed with the church covenant on this point. If it would have been an issue I would revert to total abstinence.
2. Should you do more than simply conclude it isn't a big deal if you have a beer now and again because no one mentions it at church? To me that seems hypocritical and inconsistent. Answer: What would you suggest that I do. Tell my Pastor? Risk being shunned? I enjoy my liberty in private (or with family).
More: I am not offending anyone (that I know of). I am never drunk.
More:
I am following this principle:
Romans 14:22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
Anonymous:
If that is the printed covenant of your church (which you adimmitted) than you agreed with its spirit when you stated you wanted to be a member of that local church. My concern isn't with the abstinence vs. moderation issue--rather it is with your apparent conformity that is contradictory to your actual habits.
"the printed covenant" ... is a relic of the past. I have Hiscox directory of Baptist churches. There is a standard Baptist covenant published there the precedes the emphasis on abstinence.
Also there is no forum to revisit the covenant. (I can just see myself at the next business mtg. ... "I make the motion that we modify our covenant to" ... )
My choices are these: Attend a church whose doctrines are weak (not a separtist Baptist Ch with Calvinist emphasis). Or be a member of a church where we have a doctrinal match (Baptist, fundamentalist, Calvanistic, traditional music (our preference), etc).
I doubt anyone is a perfect match for his or her church.
I am a pre-abstinence historical Baptist.
My Biblical support for my position on liberty to drink (moderation only obviously)
1 Tim 3:
Qualifications for Bishop: "not given to wine"
Qualifications for Deacons: "not given to much wine"
---------
In order of precedence. The Scriptures take authority over a man originated covenant.
Anonymous
To me it is an ethical issue in regards to the specific covenant of your church! I'm not concerned with the pre-abstinence covenants of the past. You covenanted with that body to adhere in spirit to the principles within that covenant. If you disagree, you should arrange a meeting with the pastor. If your conclusion has so much Biblical support, than he should be willing to study through the matter himself. In all kindness, you should not be able to continue with your hypocritical conclusion.
Dan,
I wouldn't be too hard on anonymous. It seems like the bigger problem is with the leadership in the sense that they don't take the covenant seriously. Every member should agree with and follow the church covenant, but most churches don't even talk about it or ask people to agree with it. If anonymous wasn't asked to agree or admonished to continue to agree I can understand why "he" doesn't feel it necessary to follow. (Though I agree with you that "he" should.)
This is food for another post on church covenants that are either outdated or not followed. They are just a piece of paper with no real point.
hypocrite?
1: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
I am neither of the above with regard to drinking.
If asked about drinking. I would defend my position Biblically just as I have on this page. In a S.S. class I explained my position Biblically. Got some raised eyebrows but that was about it.
I am living consistently with my own understanding of Scripture.
Question for the bloggers who own this site (if you are a Pastor):
How to you handle issue of someone in your church who drinks in moderation?
Church discipline? Shunned? Excluded from service?
Thanks
Please edify me. Why are you using your writing about drinking as a club to beat on the SBC. I left the IBF churches for just this reason. They cant seem to fix the problems in their own back yard so they work someone else over. Or, better yet, e-mail your thoughts to the new SBC president with your superior theological veiws to edify them. If the SBC board can't get it right, be the loving Christian brother God has called you to be. Otherwise, obey the verse in I Thes. 4:11.
Anonymous #3 (I think),
I disagree with your suggestion that the posts here at The World from My Window are designed to beat up on the SBC. It is pretty obvious from his posts that Don Fields is simply exploring this particular issue--should Christians drink alcohol? This is not about being better than others, but whether or not Scripture forbids or even encourages alcohol. I think Don would agree that everyone is more than welcome to abstain.
Don,
Thanks for the links. I know how difficult it is to come forward in a public arena like this with a new position, so I commend your willingness to say you are leaning toward the position advocated by David Kjos and others (myself included).
I look forward to seeing if some substantive discussion develops here. For the record, I think Scripture encourages drinking and that doing so glorifies God. However, Christians are free to abstain for various reasons. But let me be clear that I absolutely believe Scripture condemns drunkenness.
from Anonymous #3
I do not have a problem with Don's exploration of the issue at hand. And I do understand the sensitivity of it. I personally dont have a problem with any of my freinds that drink in moderation. I dont drink because I dont belive I could do it in moderation. Just being honest here. But I do have a problem with the flipant remark about not allowing an SBCer to teach your k-5 SS class. Please use your remarks wisely. Thanks.
I would hope that both views (abstainer and moderate only) could co-exist in one church fellowship (local church) that views Romans 14 as authoritative.
In and of itself wine does not have the power to control. The wine can't make you drink itself. It can't make you drink too much of itself. It has no power.
It does have the potential to inebriate -- should you use your own power to abuse it.
Don, thanks for the links. I want to make one thing clear, however, concerning your statement, "He is not only stating that Christians are free to participate in beverage alcohol use, but that Christians SHOULD drink alcohol!"
I am not on a campaign to persuading anyone to drink who does not want to. I don't think anyone is doing anything wrong if they don't. However, if their reason for not drinking is based on a faulty interpretation of Scripture or the traditions of men, that is a serious problem. I simply want the truth to set people free from legalism. Once they are free, then they are, well, free. I hope they will enjoy their freedom to the fullest, but that might not always mean drinking wine.
Thanks again for your consideration of my posts.
Don,
I would have to agree with your conclusions Don, David, Bob. I do not think there is Scriptural warrant for saying Scripture commands abstinence.
Saying that, currently, I do not drink--my church actually has an abstinence policy as well as my school. But I have no problem with Christians who drink wisely. I am with Bob in strongly condemning drunkness.
Don said concerning David Kjos: "He is not only stating that Christians are free to participate in beverage alcohol use, but that Christians SHOULD drink alcohol!"
Like David, I too would clarify this a bit. After my own personal study, I felt if I were not to partake of God's good gift of wine cheerfully and thankfully then it would be as if I was snubbing my nose at God and saying I know better. For me I felt compelled to drink. However, I know for various "wisdom" reasons that many others might not feel so compelled. And they are free not to drink. And I would not encourage them too. But in the end, at the marriage supper of the Lamb, Christ will drink alcoholic wine at His table with all of us. That will be a glorious day, for sure!
God bless,
Bob Hayton
Is alcohol, in, and of itself, sinful? No. It is not. Just like shooting a gun is not sinful, unless used sinfully. We initiate the sins around here, not the props we're surrounded with. I would never blame my credit card for sinning when it was ME who wanted the rush of buying that $3000. plasma TV (I resisted that particular temptation due to the greater proportion of guilt I would have had). Inanimate objects are not sinful. Jesus even cursed a fig tree, but it was done for a larger reason, a metaphor for the barren future for the Pharisees. The tree, itself, was not evil.
Nowhere in the Ten Commandments is there a mention of objects being sinful. People use objects to carry out their sinful ways. Alcohol is just such a vehicle for just such a purpose. People break all the commandments when under the influence of too much alcohol. Losing inhibitions and self-control can be a dangerous thing, just ask Mel Gibson. If a person knows that alcohol is dangerous in large quantities, they should be wary of it and use it sparingly. Just the same, a person who has pre-diabetes signs and symptoms should be very careful of what they eat. They know that overeating will most likely cause full blown type II diabetes soon and that's no picnic.
The Bible has many lessons we can learn from. Unhealthy alcohol consumption is one of them, obviously. However, abstinence is not required. For me, it's all stated very clear in John 2. Jesus turned water into wine and in John 2:11, it is stated, "This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. Notice the word "glory". Making the wine was a glorious miracle, not an example of Jesus entrapping everyone at the wedding into doing something they shouldn't be doing.
Then again, I'm a former Lutheran. What do I know!
Interesting poll and discussion over on Sharperiron
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Ravi Zacharias said something interesting today (on today's podcast at least). Apart from other considerations in this debate this seems to be a good principle in partaking in any pleasure.
“Anything that refreshes you without diminishing you distracting you or destroying your final goal is a legitimate pleasure.”
“Anything that distracts me from the goal…I’m going to consider an illicit pleasure in my life.”
The old way of dealing with this question is changing the question from "why not?" to "why?" I think Paul's answer might be "to praise God in my enjoyment!" Of course he would never let his liberty destroy his final goal (see above)!!!
All contributors,
Thank you so much for your comments and for entering into this discussion.
ThirstyDavid,
I apologize for misrepresenting your position. I was trying to be very careful not to do so. Thank you for clearing up any misunderstanding and for clearly stating your position. I used the word "should" to point out that your position is not just that it is allowed in Christian liberty, but that drinking alcohol is good and profitable.
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